Our Chicano Literature Class discussed the poem written by Texcoco amd quoted by Arturo Islas in The Rain God. The following is Percy Bysshe Shelley's "Ozymandias" (the Greek name for Ramses II of Egypt- 13 B.C.).

The assignment for this class was to read this poem, and then to discuss the similarities between Shelley's vision of history and that of Texcoco.

I met a traveller from an antique land,

 Who said-- "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone

 Stand in the desert. . . Near them, on the sand,

 Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,

 And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,

 Tell that its sculptor well those passions read

 Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,

 The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;

 And on the pedestal, these words appear:

 My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings,

 Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!

 Nothing beside remains. Round the decay

 Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare

 The lone and level sands stretch far away."

 1818

 Gabriel Herrera: Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair! nothing beside remains. round the decay how ironic! furthermore, how befitting. Ozymandius "king of kings" turns to dust and decay nothing escapes death and its oblivion eventually, just as our bodies whither so does our legacy

Claudia Castro: Shelley's poem reflects a dismal reminder of death and destruction

 It describes the ruins and desolation left behind in the desert. Shelley's poem is similar to the poem in The Rain God in that both poems describe and invite death. There is a constant reminder of the desert and how it is "inescapable". The desert seems to be a underlying theme for both poems.

Adriana Olivares: It is significant that nothing is left of Ozymandius except for the words beside him. Just as in The Rain God, Texcoco points out that the only thing left to show is the written word.

Gabriel Herrera: the hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed very interesting. what exactly does this mean? any suggestions?

Alba Pena: The first similarity that comes to mind is the subject matter; death and what remains after it. Death comes to us all and it is left up to those surviving us to determine what is and what is not remembered of us. In this case, Ozymandias knew this statue would be the only reminder of his years on Earth and stated so.

Claudia Castro: maybe the desert invited and tantalized..and the heart fed on the desire to be there with the king...No?

Marilu Vargas: Shelley's poem and Texcoco's poem relate in the way that they are both talking about death, and that no one can escape it. It doesn't matter who you are, you also turn into pestilential dust. Just like a common man Ozymandias, "Kings of Kings," can't escape his grave.

Maricela Rojas: The last part of the poem, "My name is Ozymandias..." is the almighty king saying, "look at me now. After all the fame and glory, I'm still dead."

Cynthia Dacarett: In both poems they talk about death and how nothing can escape it. All that is left is dust and the written words left behind. It doesn't matter if you are powerful or a common man-- everything returns to the earth.

Claudia Castro: "whose frown, and wrinkled lip, and a sneer of cold command".... great personification, but what exactly is it describing, the desert, death...? anyone???

Tommy Tijerina: The desert, if you think about it, is place of death and decay. What comes to mind when you think of deserts. I usually think of cow skulls and dried up tumble weed. A place where things seem to end up and rest. Your body returns to the land and is nothing more than before you came into the world.

Adriana Olivares: "...these lifeless things, the hand that mocked them..."

the living feel superior to the nonliving, the lifeless. The artist felt in control when working with the stone, felt a "cold command", manipulating the nonliving. Yet it is these nonliving things that exist even after we cease to exist.

Macey Looney: Both poems deal with the common theme of death and the fact that it is unavoidable. What is accomplished during life is irrelevant because we are all equal when we return to the earth.

Gabriel Herrera: perhaps the hand is the hand of the sculptor; mocking death and its inevitable finale. heart that fed?? not too clear here. maybe another reference to the sculptor. the heart that "fed" life into the work.just with all things that live, they surely die. all that's left of Ozymandius is some broken legs and a face in the sand. another one bites the dust.

Maricela Rojas: We know that the mesage of the statue is for the onlookers who come upon it, but who is this poem geared to? Who "met the man"? and how did he say this if he's dead?

Ricardo De La Fuente: both poems reflect a pessimistic idea of what life is about. But it does have a realistic point that death is inescapable. No MATTER HOW POWERFUL YOU ARE. So be ready for your turn!

Luz Ramirez: So the death theme is common to both Shelley and Texcoco but it's too easy to say we die and that's it. How do we, as human beings, deal with our inevitable end? What is it about the Chicano culture that allows one to persevere?

Claudia Castro: Gabriel, VERY FUNNY, but the poet meant two legs of stone... I don't think they were his legs standing upright in the sand, but they were definitely ruins from his destruction....

Bryan Rubio: In the midst of the desert where a great statue of the conquerer Ozymandias once stood to strike fear and awe in all of the eyes which were to behold it, now only trunkless legs stand. The merciless face of a destroyer now lays shattered across the desert floor. This is reminiscent of the poem within The Rain God in which the poet easily shows that even the mightiest fall to the grave. The poem by Netzahualcoyotl tells us that "all the earth is a grave and nothing escapes it; nothing is so perfect that it does not descend to its tomb". This very somber thought hits us straight on as truth. As much as we all do not care to think about death, Netzahualcoyotl's poem shows us that it is always looming around every corner, and just because we're young, brave, or intelligent we can not outrun death. The poem of Texcoco also reminds those of grand stature that they too cannot defeat death. This can also be seen in Shelley's poem in that even the great conquerer's statue a symbol of power and strength cannot control destiny and its ultimate pull towards death.

Lisa Billalobos: Both poems talk about death and how no one, no matter how wonderful you are, can escape it. The poems also mention the value of written history.

Cynthia Dacarett: In the Chicano culture there is the belief of life after death, and how when we die we turn to ashes but our soul remains to be judged and finally to meet with God.

Marilu Vargas: Well there really isn't a way to "deal with our end," you don't know when you'll run out of string. I guess you should just live your life, and not be thinking "oh, I wonder when it's my turn."

Tommy Tijerina: As human beings, people take death in different lights. I personally, take death seriously. I have lost family before and that hurt. I am selfish about death. I am Catholic so the tendency is be great about it and say that we will see them when Judgement Day comes. But I would rather have them here with me. With my family things are different. Some of the younger generation have no problem with death but the older generation is afraid to even think of seeing their loved ones in a casket.

Luz Ramirez: Cynthia, or anyone, how is this faith in the afterlife presented in the literature we have read so far?

Gabriel Herrera: how does this relate to Chicano culture? we are born and eventually we die. at the same time we live forever. the struggle never ends. if the fight kills us don't curse the cause. it is the fight which has made us and kept us alive.

Bryan Rubio: The frown and wrinkled lip are desribing the great(?) king Onzymandias. the sculptor sculpted him that way for that was his supposed visage or look that he had on his face. The face of a tyrant.

Adriana Olivares: There has been a lot of evidence of faith in the afterlife. For instance, in The Rain God many see and talk to the dead, the spirits of those that they loved. Mama Chona, towards the end, asks why her husband didn't come to visit her. The answer was "because he's dead". She said she knew that, but he should visit anyway.

Ricardo De La Fuente: Faith is evident in different ways. For example people who are real close to their congregations try to fullfill their own beliefs so in that way whenever it's time to go to the other end they're ready for it. It doesn't matter if you are a Chicano or you're not. What does matter is to be in calm within yourself

Claudia Castro: The Chicano culture celebrates death and "invites" it in a way because they are ultimately intrigued with the whole idea. It WILL HAPPEN, and they know it... The culture allows one to perservere because the discussion of death is not a taboo topic like in N. America, like Gabriel, I believe that it is a matter of struggle that never ends.

Luz Ramirez: Bryan, are only the tyrants of history recorded in art, literature? What about, say, us humble literature students?

Lisa Billalobos: Tommy, I totally understand how you feel. I've lost my best friend and family members. You would think older people could handle it better since through their lifetime they have experienced many deaths. When my best friend died I think I was stronger than the adults who were supposed to be there for me.

Catherine Chacon: The poem by Texcoco is similar to this one in that they both acknowledge the fact that death happens to everyone, no matter how high and mighty. The poem by Texcoco expresses this sentiment in its very first line, 'nothing is so perfect that it does not descend to its tomb.' In "Ozymandias", Shelley is a little less up front about relaying his message. This sentiment of "the mighty falling", is not completely clear until toward the end of the poem, when the author reveals the inscription on this Ozymandias'd tomb stone. It is then that the reader is put in touch with the fact that, yes, this was a great man (or powerful man ), and he is dead. Another similarity in these poems is the amount of power given to the living, after death. Texcoco does this in the very last line of his poem. "Nothing recalls them but the written page." Ultimately he is saying, once someone dies, no matter how great, or how well accomplished that individual may have been, all his greatness and glory goes with him. The only thing that may stick around for a while is what everyone still living allows to survive, both on paper and in memory. In contrast to Texcoco, Shelley emphasizes this sentiment toward the beginning of his poem: "Half wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command/Tell that its sculptor well those passions read." These lines are acknowledging the power of the sculptor over the king, Ozymandias, after his death. That power being the ability of the sculptor to carve out the king, to fit the way the sculptor has seen him. This image is what will last all of eternity, not the actual king.

Alejandro Meza: both of these poems basically point out that it does not matter how much you do with your life, if you were a great king or great person, death does not discriminate and at the end all that is left are the memories you marked down of yourself for the rest to remember you by

Cynthia Dacarett: Yes, I believe that you should live one day at the time, but there are those of us who believe that there is something out there after death. It gives a little bit of hope that the world that exists beyond might be a better place. It also is a nice way to remeber those who have died as having passed on to something better, not left to decay in a hole.

Marilu Vargas: This might not relate to what we are discussing, however, my father always tells us that when he dies, he wants us to be happy that he went to a better world and that ONE DAY we will all be together again. How can one actually feel happy at a loved one's funeral?

Maricela Rojas: In the Chicano cuture, especially in the Catholic religion, we are taught that death is in fact inevitable and that everything we do (i.e., morals, values, sins, etc.) will affect what happens after we die. While we are alive, we are taught to respect the dead, and on certain days, to actually celebrate it. We are also taught that the best (or worst) is to come after we are dead. No amount of happiness on earth is as wonderful as heaven and no unhappiness on earth is as awful as hell. Everything we do, will affect where we end up.

Luz Ramirez: Ricardo, you bring up an important point that dealing with death is a universal experience. But I was wondering if there is any particular way that the Chicanos deal with it in the literature we have read so far. I was thinking also of Mexico's celebration of the dead-- do you think that celebration is present in Chicano culture?

Sylvia De Leon: In the literature the faith of the people show that they are in fact afraid of death yet they seem to all have a belief that with death there is also a sense of fulfillment and happiness. For example, many people believe that when you die you are welcomed by your loved ones who passed before you.

David Ramos: I agree with Claudia when she said that the Chicano culture celebrates and invites death. I have not seen this in other cultures but in the Chicano culture after a funeral you usually go back to the house of the person who has just died and have a cena. It was once told to me that you should weep when someone is born and your should feel joy when someone passes away.

Claudia Castro: How does The Rain God celebrate life? We know that the novel describes death, desert, and destruction... but what about life does this novel describe that is also characteristic to the Chicano culture...? Besides spirituality, that is?

Macey Looney: the Chicano culture is prepared for death and uses it as cause for celebration (i.e., the day of the dead) where as in n. america anything will be done to prevent the experience. we are afraid to die

Luz Ramirez: Claudia, maybe through food and communion? Why a chapter called "Chile"?

Lisa Billalobos: Is anyone afraid of dying? Both of these poems are saying that no matter what we accomplish or how much money we make it isn't going to matter. We're still going to die. Even if someone was to write something great about me and my accomplishments, when I die half of the world isn't going to give a hoot. When you die, you can't take your job and your money with you.

Marilu Vargas: I read in a book called, The Mexican-Americans of the Southwest by Madsen. This book does nothing but put down Mexicans, however, it stated that Mexicans don't Cry at Funerals, can someone explain this?

Bryan Rubio: Well I wouldn't call us tyrants, maybe more along the lines of the "fated". We are fated to live our lives and then die. What we do with them is our own business. Not everyone is remembered in the hereafter. Some of those that chose to live their lives day to day not seeking any type of knowledge, secure only in the fact that there is food and shelter not caring to contribute to the outside world are obscured and lost. Others like myself plan on leaving a pretty big mark on the world. I want everyone to remember me and they will, for this is the fate which i have chosen. I really don't know how i am going to do that yet but you all will see. Whether it be literature, music,or something crazy that you do , you will be remembered. The names of Kurt Cobain, Charles Manson, E.E. Cummings-these all will be remembered forever.

Gabriel Herrera: Maricela, that is all true if you believe in heaven and hell. but to tell you the truth, i've never seen either one. i do see, however, this reality i which i live now. i see the Catholic church and what it does. i see what it has done in the past.

Adriana Olivares: The Rain God celebrates life in little ways. Looking forward to weekly rituals--poker night, for example. Spending time with those you love, time with family. Watching the sunset, the sky. Painting the walls because you like the joy of bright colors.

Ricardo De La Fuente: have you thougth about doing your own congregation !! you have seen it all...

Catherine Chacon: Adriana, that is a good point. Family life is a HUGE part of Mexican culture. It is very important to stay close to your family.

Alba Pena: Everyone deals with death in our own way. We discussed this topic in my Modern Art of Mexico class; more in terms of how Mexicans deal with death. And the answer is... The Day of The Dead! \ This tradition represents one way of dealing with death. By celebrating on The Day of The Dead, the mourning may be lessened. To some, the fear of death is no longer there. We also discussed the fact that one symbol common to the Mexican culture is the calavera. Placing calaveras in the middle of parties or inviting mariachi bandsm to play help provide an image of death not as an ending, but a new beginning. This provides light-hearted way of looking at death; thus dealing with it.

Lisa Billalobos: Marilu, I have seen some Mexicans cry their eyes out. I've even seen the traditional screamer and fainter at funerals.

Luz Ramirez: Gabriel, you bring up a very important point about faith. Both of my parents are Catholic but I never went to church other than for weddings and funerals (la muerte otra vez). What happens if one becomes alienated or distanced from the church? Then what?

Alejandro Meza: I agree with David, death in Mexican culture is celebrated but in Chicano cukture in the U.S. ha sforgotten about the significance of death. Death is maybe one of the greatest events that our lives encounter, we have no more worries, no pain and that is something many people seem to forget now. Many just see death as a dark world but there is something much better after life.

Claudia Castro: AH, come on , Gabriel, you've seen heaven and hell...think of your most favorite occurrence, person, thing, etc. and think of your worst...and I think THEN, you have seen both....I feel it's all of matter of perception in life...now, we get into the whole idea if there is a tangible place like heaven and hell!!! OR is it a matter of what you feel inside and your belief!

Sylvia De Leon: To me, the fact that THe Rain God celerates life throughout the book. Life is about the good and the bad and The Rain God talks about both. If it were to only have brought up the good would that be life? Celebration of life is celebrating all that life brings us.

Bryan Rubio: Sometimes I hink we should switch ceremonies. At birth everyone is happy. In death, sorrow envelops everyone. This definitely is not a perfect world. It is not a world that i feel safe enough to bring a child forth. So maybe we should cry as the child is born and pray it have a good life and then celebrate its death. Anyway that's what i was brought up to believe. My mom was a Catholic due to her being Italian. My dad converted her before they got married because he is a non-denominational preacher from Guatemala. So you can guess how much religion i got as a youth.

Marilu Vargas: Lisa,I know, never have I seen someone who is 'happy' at a funeral. About the fainting and screaming, I have seen that as well. I don't know how this man came up with such an idea!

Maricela Rojas: To a certain extent, i think that Chicanos are sometimes desensitized to the whole idea of death (i'm talking in general, not when it affects you personally). We're sitting here talking about how we're "inviting" death, but in reality most people don't think about it on a regular basis. If it does come knocking at my door, i don't think i'll want to answer it. Note: i don't mean there is actually a "place" (heaven or hell), it's just what you believe to be its equivalent (reincarnation, etc.)

Catherine Chacon: Luz, good question. My older sister did the same thing. Now that I think of it, so did my father.... and he is from a Mexican-Catholic family. He is pretty much atheistic? How DO you expain that?

Sylvia De Leon: Maricela, most people do not in fact welcome death, but I do think that once the body is actually going through the horrible process the soul is going through something peaceful

Macey Looney: if one becomes distanced from the church they will hopefully find solace in another sphere. Claudia- I agree withyou about heaven and hell. If someone doesn't believe in either what do they think happens after death?

Bryan Rubio: i dont believe in a physical heaven or hell but i am Christian-what do you think about that!

Marilu Vargas: Has anyone ever seen mariachis at a funeral? I think it just makes it harder to cope with, the music and all. I'd say it's pretty much ironic, don't you think?

Adriana Olivares: Sylvia--you say the soul is going through something peaceful. It's interesting that the deaths we read about in The Rain God were peaceful. Maybe some in confusion, or in Felix's case did have some pain, but not horrible and wrenching.

David Ramos: Marilu, as a matter of fact of have seen mariachis at a funeral.

Ricardo De La Fuente: The celebration of the death in Mexico is very sacret and is very significative to the community, it brings families together and joy in a certain way (by reuniting), but is certainly a sad day for everybody because everbody you see there is there for the same cause(death). And about Chicano culture I could not answer you because I haven't been exposed long enough to compare them both.

Catherine Chacon: do you think religious beliefs are more for our own personal benefit (to give us something to look forward to maybe??)

Macey Looney: if you dont believe in heaven or hell doesn't that contradict a big aspect of Christianity?

Lisa Billalobos: Luz, When I was living with my parents, church was a must on Sundays. I didn't feel like going half of the time, but I had no choice. I feel that if I don't feel like getting up and sitting through church I shouldn't. I would be putting on a show, like in Rain God, it's what looked good. Now that I'm away from home I still go to church a lot, but not every Sunday. If I don't feel like going, I lay in bed and say a few prayers and talk to God from there.

Cynthia Dacarett: I believe you should celebrate both life and death. I know the world is messed up, but if you just sit there and criticize it, it surely won't be any better any time soon. What is our purpose in life then, if you are selfish enough not to bring a life to this world to enjoy it? Before I die I would want to live life to the fullest and leaving a legacy is the best way you can be remembered. If your parents had thought the same way you think you wouldn't be here to leave your mark like you said.

Claudia Castro: For additional reading (as if any of us need it), but if you are interested, I recommend this book called, Embraced By The Light by Betty Eadie... she supposedly experienced an out-of-body experience and describes all the many things that would have occurred-- as if she had died... the book addresses many of these issues we have discusse here today and it is very inspirimg as well... after reading it, it makes you feel like Bryan... like going out there and doing something because there is something much better waiting for us later.....

Bryan Rubio: We walk by faith not sight all physical things around us have no significance.It is the yearning for the afterlife, to be at the right hand of God which leads us through life. All the physical things in this world are a means to get us there.

Gabriel Herrera: Claudia, of course it is a matter of my own belief. ponder this; the best memories and happiest times of my life were given to me by people who have the ability to hurt me the most. heaven and hell here on earth?? i don't know. nor do i claim to know. for me it all boils down to this: in a world where nothing seems to be free--not even knowledge i rely on my God-given instincts as a human being. heaven or hell? never seen 'em. don't know anyone who has.

Lisa Billalobos: When I die, I want mariachis at my funeral.

Catherine Chacon: Luz, are you my sister in disguise????

Marilu Vargas: David,I've also seen mariachis, and I think " how can these people have mariachis." I know it must be difficult and it's funny because I later find myself saying, 'when I die, I want mariachis at my funeral.

Sylvia De Leon: In a big way I do believe that religion plays a part in coping with death. I believe that when you die ther is a sense of peacefulness, but if it turns out not to be true it makes it a lot easier to cope wiht death while it awaits you.

Ricardo De La Fuente: don't critize that idea of having mariachis in a funeral because whenever I die I will have some

Lisa Billalobos: Wait a minute! I still don't know who this *Rain God* is.

Alejandro Meza: Marilu I agree, Mariachis are usually present in funerals to celebrate death but it doesn't work that way, it just makes it harder on those that are in mourning the loved one

Marilu Vargas: How do you know Ricky, you'll be DEAD!

Ricardo De La Fuente: I already told my partner(I'm married)

Cynthia Dacarett: Marilu, I have seen mariachis in a funeral and my mother wants the in hers and believe me if all her life she has loved music, what better way is there to remember her by then with music.

David Ramos: Marilu, i also want to have mariachis

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